Further update from the Sovereign nation of Georgia. (CNN World) :
Bombs rocked Tbilisi early Saturday morning as the fight between Georgia and Russia over a breakaway region intensified and moved into the Georgian capital.
1 of 3 Government buildings, including the Parliament, were evacuated when the bombs fell.
Heavy casualties have reported on both sides since Russian forces moved Friday into South Ossetia, a pro-Russian autonomous region of Georgia.
Russian bombers were targeting Georgia's economic infrastructure, National Security Council secretary Alexander Lomaia said, including the country's largest Black Sea port, Poti, and the main road connecting the southern part of Georgia with the east and the airport.
Georgian television reported that the port had been destroyed.
Georgia, a former Soviet state, sent troops into South Ossetia on Thursday, aiming to crack down on the separatists, who want independence or unification with North Ossetia, which is in Russia. Russia responded Friday, sending troops into the Georgian province where it had peacekeepers stationed.
"I saw bodies lying on the streets, around ruined buildings, in cars," Lyudmila Ostayeva, a resident of the South Ossetia capital, Tskhinvali, told The Associated Press on Friday.
"It's impossible to count them now. There is hardly a single building left undamaged," she said after fleeing to a village near the Russian border, AP reported.
"They are killing civilians, women and children, with heavy artillery and rockets," Sarmat Laliyev, 28, told AP.
One U.S. State Department official called the conflict a "very dangerous situation" and said diplomatic moves are afoot around the globe to stop it.
Georgia -- on the Black Sea coast between Russia and Turkey -- appealed for diplomatic intervention.
Georgia asked the United States for planes to bring back its 2,000 troops serving as part of the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq, a U.S. official said.
"All day today, they've been bombing Georgia from numerous warplanes and specifically targeting [the] civilian population, and we have scores of wounded and dead among [the] civilian population all around the country," Georgia's president, Mikhail Saakashvili, said Friday. "This is the worst nightmare one can encounter."
This is truly getting out of hand now. The Secretary of State has called for a cease fire and so has the President. The Country of Georgia is a vital ally both within the Global War on Terror and within the Caucus Region. The US and NATO must act now to check these actions by the Russian Federation. Georgia has asked to become part of NATO, it has committed troops to Iraq, and it has fought terrorists within the Caucus Region in support of our Global War on Terror.
Not only is all of this important, but the stability of the region is vitally important to our national interests. The country of Georgia is a vital key to this stability.
The Port of Poti is also the major port in the area along with Batumi. If it has truly been destroyed, their is only two true reasons for this. The Russian Federation is specifically targeting the economic infrastructure of Georgia and the ability of NATO, the US, and the UN in bringing Peace Keeping forces into the country.
NATO, the US, and the UN must act now to check this move by Russia.
God Bless America
Bryan
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/08/georgia.ossetia/index.html Sphere: Related Content
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23 comments:
Maj - I had the surreal experience (as, I'm sure, many others did) of watching the opening ceremonies of the Olympic games and thinking about how many wars and other such "conflicts" are happening right now, including this one.
Thanks for brining the updates - much appreciated!
Russians entered S. Ossetia as a reaction to the georgian offensive in a region with a peacekeeping force.
Before starting accusing the russians of killing civilians and stuff like, let´s analyze what really happened ( not what CNN says).
Who ignited this situation was Georgia not Russia.
Do you really think US and NATO are going to fight in this conflict?.....Don´t count on that
Dont read that US propaganda on CNN/BBS. It is not true Russian airforce bombs Tbilisi, infrastructure, civilians. Its not true that Russian 58 army entered region to attack Georgia.
US allied agencies all ower the world do not report the beginning: at the night of Olimpic Games starting Georgia silently after declaration of peace from Saakashvilli bombs Tskhinvaly with artylery and Grad weapons. 1400 Osetians killed. It is genocide. 15 Russian peacekeepers killed. Ground operation begins, Georgian troops entered Tskhinvaly. Russian peasekeepers and Osetians defend themselves for 16 hours before Russian reisforcements arrive. They strike Georgian troops out from Tkshinvaly. Air forces started to bomb military bases, military airports and a port.
You can read the whole details in Russian in lenta.ru, echo.msk.ru. Use Google translate. Here is the blog in English with correct information:
http://russia-insider.livejournal.com/25038.html
People of the South Ossetia Republic apply for the government of the Russian Federation and for the people of Russia!
http://cominf.org/2008/08/09/1166477966.html
Where are the facts??? C'mon, Major C and bloggers. Where are the CREDIBLE, VERIfIABLE FACTS? We went into Iraq inspired by bogus "information". Do we learn ANYTHING?
(can't apologize for the SCREAMING. This is insanity)
Mezzo SF,
Thank You, hope you are doing well.
Anon,
Some of what you said is true, but here is the problem. Russia has a vested interest in this situation, and now is expanding the conflict zone to all of Georgia. When your bombers and strike aircraft are hitting targets throughout Georgia this has significantly widened the conflict.
My personal belief is that the UN SCR needs to get involved, put a cease fire in place, and place a UN Peace Keeping Force into the area. If the true concern is what is right for the people and to avoid additional deaths, then this is the best way.
As far as NATO fighting, no, but a force from NATO to act as part of the UN Peace Keeping, Yes.
Finally lets not forget that the South Ossetians are not completely innocent here. They were conducting terrorist attacks also against Georgians.
Bryan
Russian peacekeepers, 15 killed and 150 wounded by now, IS the peacekeeping force with UN mandate. They got attacked by Gorgia. It is not only a must, but the right of Russia under UN approved mission to protect their peacekeepers and clean the buffer territory from georgian forces.
As for bombing, cmon Georgia blows osetian main city Tkshinvali to dust killing more then 1400 civillians. They do not stop heavy artilery, tank, minethrowers fire on the city, peacekeepers and 58 army to help them now! NOW our boys dying! How do you think is it correct to bomb the artilery, bases and military airports in georgian territory to claim them down?
Bryan, Ossetians are not completely innocent here, yes, they hate Georgia and must protect their homeland. They are the casulties in Russia/US geopolitical game. And Georgia is the tool. US donates big money to reinforce Georgia, US and Israel provides instructors. US wants Georgia to clean up Osetia and Abhazia to join NATO -- they cant do so with such a conflicts on their territory.
Russian interest here is to keep peace, keep Osetia and Abhazia allied and do not let NATO expand to keep geopolitical ballance.
Facts? Watch euronews, read osetian/russian blogs and russian sites. Do not believe what Saakashvilli/CNN/BBS says. It is dirty political games. Russia keep peace in Osetia for 14 years! And now georgia with the help of west brokes peace, people dying.
All anonymous comments above report what independant russian news agencies and bloggers post during last two days.
Sorry for my English.
Sergey Sinitsa, Russia
Sergey,
Dont apologize, Im very glad you wrote.
I agree with much of what you said. But I think that this has taken on a life of its own. The reason I am firmly for an independant peace keeping force under a UN Security Council Resolution is that this is a way to bring true neutrality to the situation.
Whether for right or wrong the Russian Forces have now become embroiled in a decent size fight against the Georgian Armed Forces. If we really want to have a legitimate and neutral mediation and solution to this, then I think it needs to be a third party.
To be honest, I dont mind anyone doing this. I know I have said NATO, but as long as its someone, thats what matters right now.
My primary concern is ceasing the fighting and ensuring the safety of the South Ossetians and the Georgians.
Sergey, can you reccommend some good sites and send the links. I have one good Russian Blog Im watching now, can you send some others?
Thank You and I hope all is going well for you, and thanks so much for writing.
Bryan
Anon,
Your question regarding where are the facts. I think between my posts, and truly intelligent people like Sergey and others that are posting you are getting to see all sides of the story.
Ill never claim I have all the facts, or all the good ideas. But in a forum like this, where people like Sergey and others can sit down and discuss and reach a joint decision on what is truly happening, is vitally important and productive.
It truly leaves me wondering if we even would have had a Cold War if 30-40 years ago we had this capabillity to share ideas like this.
Hope this finds all of you doing well.
Bryan
Major C: As a (sort of) neutral norwegian, I have to give Sergey the point: the Georgian government launched a clearly well prepared setpiece assault on the excuse that Ossetian irregulars were sniping across the border. This has been a stalemate since 1991, and the Georgians obviously decided that the Olympic opening was the right time to do something about it. Heck, they even used artillery on Tskhinvaly, the International Red Cross confirms the university and main hospital of Tskhinvaly being shelled and on fire. Big big mistake, and a huge underestimation of russian nationalistic pride. Seems like the Georgians have miscalculated totally, and were expecting US troops to come rushing in to fight on their side. Surrealistic, I do not understand what they were thinking.
ALso, since Kosovo, the russians have a legalistic point as well. In a popular vote, propably 70-80% of the Ossetians would join Russia. Russia even warned about this before the Kosovo decision. SO it seems this is the price Bush has got to pay for the cheering crowds of Tirana. In many ways this is like Serbia trying to retake Kosovo: Formalistically correct but demographically wrong.
Any news of the NG units who were/are in country at the time? Also, is the US providing planes for transporting the Georgian 2000 from Iraq into the combat zone?
Brian, I dont have any links to information in English, the info I posting here is from lenta.ru and echo.msk.ru and Russain tv and blog search.
I also have seen EuroNews video interview with civillians in Osetia, they said Georgia attacked them during the night. They said it is genocide.
Here is the latest:
Bush and Rice requests Russia to withdraw forces at once and do not disturb Georgia to destroy separatists, they said it in more politcorrect terms. Medvedev answered Bush that the only way to stop fight is Georgia stops fire, we wont leave Osetia.
My thoughts: The interest for Russia is a geopolitical balance in region, keeping control for transport oil, the respect of Russians of their government for the will to protect our citizens and resources. Osetia is Russan ally and Georgia Government is US. Any third party envolvement would be a balance shift which IMO is bad. How can third party stop Georgia fire at our forces on Osetian territory now? Blow them all? What world can do is support the international peacekeeping mandate given to Russia, request Georgia leave a zone of peacekeeping control and stop fire, call Saakashvili to responcebility under tribunal for breaking international peace agreements to stop the blood.
The UN gathered 2 times in the last days and failed to cocnlude anything. Georgia representative said Russia attacks Georgia and it is war between Georgia and Russia. Russian say it is no war between Russia Georgia but an operation to force peace in region.
Georgia stops Russian sites (.ru zone) access, turnes off Russian TV, turnes of independant TV leaving only government TV. Saakashvilli telling lies tryin to convince the world that it is agression of Russia, in the same time Georgia army keep attacking Tskhinvalli and our peacekeepers.
Moreover, Abhazia (another separatists part of Georgia) starts a military operation to force out Georgia military presence. Georgia said it is not Abhazia attacks them, but Russia.
I saw postings on American forum like "Lets conquor this whole region and end the fight." This is what Saakashvilli wants too. I hope this not happens because it would be a diplomatic and infowar failure of Russia to protect thier interests.
Hope this info from other side of the globe helps to find the truth, which is no doubt somewhere in between of Russian/US news reports.
Sergey Sinitsa, Russia
Sergey: I think both sides would do good not to use the word "genocide", since it makes us here in the west think of Rwanda, Holocaust etc. 1500 civilians is not genocide, although it is very bad in itself. Genocide is when you go house to house and slaughter everybody. Also, I do not think Putin was exactly sad to see the georgians mess up and do stupid thing. But I agree that it is Georgia who is the catalyst, and have done a really really supid action.
Sergey,
Awesome post, with the news. Thank you much.
Well anyone who says just take it over or just blow them up is just ignorant, or an idiot or both. Dont worry about them. We're not all like that...lol.
Im curious as to your thoughts why a third party is not good? My impression right now is Russia has become to personally embroiled in this to deal with Georgia(For right or for wrong)? Would a third party not do better in mediating this to an acceptable outcome for all?
Fnord,
I agree, theres blame all around right now to be honest. Thats one of the reasons why I think an immediate cease fire is what is needed. No matter who did what, started what, right now its the people in Ossetia and Georgia that are suffering.
The latest that I saw was that they would be airlifted back to Georgia from Iraq. No times though.
Bryan
8.08.2008 - 20:23
Appeal to the Governments and peoples of the world
Our people have been systematically exterminated for the past 19 years by the fascist Georgian regime, and their inhuman atrocities have been neglected by the world for the sake of geopolitical interest of the United States.
The conflict is being resolved in compliance with international law. However, skillfully applying falsification of historical facts and political insinuations, under a patronage from the US government, Georgia misrepresents reality to the world.
As of today, the major part of South Ossetia has been eradicated by Georgian aggressors. Our elderly, women and children continue to die. The total death toll is unknown as the Georgian side was opening heavy fire at those trying to help the wounded. Including children.
The unmatched Georgian brutality has been vividly displayed in 1991-1992, when they have been firing point-blank at South Ossetian civilians – the Zar tragedy can never be forgotten, a bus full of people shot dead - elderly, women and children. They shot a three-year-old boy trying to hide under his mother’s body.
What can we talk about with Georgia? How can we forgive burying people alive, burning people, and torturing people with refined methods? After all this, the world is silent and the Georgians continue killing innocent people. Saakashvili doesn’t feel sorry for anybody, even his compatriot Georgians. The notions of "people" and "meat" are not too different for him, and probably he prefers the latter.
For South Ossetia there is only one way to survival - a recognition of its independence by the world community. We appeal to all the good people in the world not to be indifferent to the fate of the Ossetian people.
http://tskhinval.ru/english/51.html
Alexander,
Are you in the area now or do you have access to people that are in the area?
Bryan
fnord,
Osetian solder writes that snipers shoot woman and children, kill unarmed:
http://rupor-naroda.livejournal.com/
There was reported on Russian news that Georgian solders throw grenades to the cels with civilians in Tkshinvali, there is a post on Osetian site than Georgian solders gathered civilians to a building and burned it, but I do not beleive it because there isnt much photos and videos from Tkshinvali. It may meen that it isnt controlled by any side now.
The video: http://community.livejournal.com/georgia_war/52516.html
shows solder shoot unarmed not speak Georgian.
>Also, I do not think Putin was exactly sad to see the georgians mess up and do stupid thing.
I do not understand you here, sorry, what are you meen "exactly sad"?
MAJ C
>Im curious as to your thoughts why a third party is not good?
It is fifth party, not third, and I think it would be a mess. I do not think it is not good really, I just can't see the way. How do you think this fifth party actions now? Any moves sould be peacefull, after this war ends, I hope soon.
>My impression right now is Russia has become to personally embroiled in this to deal with Georgia(For right or for wrong)?
Yes, if your "deal with" meen keep Osetia and Abkhazia under Russian control and in peace. If it was not so we just left and Osetia wouldnt have a chance.
>Would a third party not do better in mediating this to an acceptable outcome for all?
I see that there is no acceptable outcome for all now, it is a point of long run local conflict and geopolitical at the same time. My point is that more guns -- more blood. How can other countries help now? UN gathered for the third time and do not got any resolution because there is no neutral solution :(
There is a central info hub on the net where Osetian/Abkhazian/Russian people try to gather the facts about this war hidden by Russian/US mass media, please digg it and spread this link:
http://digg.com/world_news/True_facts_about_what_s_going_on_in_Georgia
Sergey,
Good to see you again:)
Well I guess my worry is that Russia has a very vested and personal interest in this, and I worry that with that vested interest may not see all the possibilities.
Dont get me wrong, I am not faulting your military. I can only imagine my response if I was in their shoes. But on the flip side, trying to think like a Georgian right now I can see their position also.
Thats why I think this is so complicated. I think Russia could probably handle this mediation and conflict resolution but would all parties accept this? Or would they just be forced to accept it and 5 years down the road this happens all over again? I am equally dissapointed that the UN met a 3rd time and nothing came out of it.
I am guessing you live pretty close to the area, what are you seeing right now from your position? I am going to check out that site now Sergey thanks so much.
Hope this finds you doing well:)
Bryan
Ofcause there is a personal interest, it happens so close. But the main interest now is get peace and claim down Georgian agression.
>But on the flip side, trying to think like a Georgian right now I can see their position also.
Bryan, dont think only Russian/Georgian, try to think like Osetian and Abkhazian. They can't stand Georgia claims.
>Russia could probably handle this mediation and conflict resolution but would all parties accept this? Or would they just be forced to accept it and 5 years down the road this happens all over again?
With support of the rest of the word declare Abkhazia and Osetia independance to end this long lasting nightmare, punish Saakashvilli in Gaaga for his crime -- is the only longlasting peacefull solution. Can you see other?
>I am guessing you live pretty close to the area, what are you seeing right now from your position?
No, quite distant, I mainly read Russian sites I already posted and your blog to see US view.
Sergey,
Thanks again for writing. Glad to see you again.
As far as can I see another way. I dont know yet to be honest. You made a very good point about thinking like Abkhazian and Ossetian also. I've been struggling with that for the last few days. Part of me says yes, maybe the best way is to give them their full independance. Part of me also says, well doesnt that unleash a domino effect. Doesn't that mean at anytime, anywhere, people can just decide to leave and join someone else.
Im still struggling with that answer to be honest, and trying to realize my own full realization of what right is.
In all honesty I believe there is going to have to be a compromise solution so that all parties get what they need, what they deserve and what is right.
As far as people being held responsible, I think that is something that needs to wait until the dust settles. I read one source, it reports this, I read another, and it reports something else. Like you said, Ive seen similar reports but havent seen any photographic proof so I dont want to jump to conclusions.
I will say this though, if when this is over, there is proof of wrong-doings, then those parties must be held accountable. Thats never a question. Right is right, and wrong is wrong.
Thank You so much for writing again Sergey, I'm really enjoying our conversations. :)
Bryan
I also enjoy your posts and comments much, Bryan.
As of domino effect -- every single conflict is unique, this people talk different languages and in war for many years. Osetian people give their lives to us asking for protection and talking about genocide.
From the other point, some Russian liberalists said it is not our business but an internal problems of Georgia.
The UN must investigate what hapenned. Until then, I agree with you, it is hard to get the right point.
TV news say Georgian army left Tkshinvali but gather nearby. Abkhazia gathering forces at the borders, 6000-8000 Georgian solders reported to be nearby, our peacekeepers live Abkhazian border, but our ships patrols Abkhazia coast. I hope this nightmare ends today.
Our TV say Ukrainin politics trying to convince the world to support Georgia, Ukraine sells weapons to Georgia.
My relatives live in Ukraine, Ukraine, Belorussia and Russia -- we are brother nations. Russian, Ukrainean, Georgian people do not want this war. Fucking politics :(
Oops... we got anti-US TV report now... about Georgian solders trained by US and Saakashvilli close tight with US, Jamestown foundation supports Caucasian conflict with money. The comments is a brainwash that this war was planned by US, they say "bloody game planned by US elite". TV said US economy in great crysis and the war helps to support economy. "US National interest in Caucasian region". "This is not local conflict". "Saakashvilli would not fight so long after blitskgig failure if he didnt get support from outside. It is sad that Georgian external politics developed elsewheare...". Now we got report about how US president candidates and mass media change accents to Russia attack Georgia. I see Bush and McCain call for NATO presence, Barack Abama said US must work closer with UN and other world to solve a problem, please elect this smart guy! Our diplomate Churkin holds a strike now on UN telling we do not bomb civilian objects and protect Osetia according to peacemaking agreement. 127 US Military Advisors now in Georgia. "Diplomatical duel." "2000, how many more people must be killed to call this genocide?" Now they talk about CNN fakes. Juletto Kresa said Saakashvilli force situation putting EU flag behind him and sayng the world is in danger. Europe brainwashing their people telling we attack first and kill civilians. German press writes true, English -- not. German expert said it is Pentagon plan of nuclear supremacy, supported by last three presidents. He said about Wall Street economic crysis too. (William Endeling or something) Bryan, I dont like it. My sister (from Ukraine) and my wife's sister with husband lives in US. This all is so complicated :(
Sergey,
I agree, the water is getting very muddied right now. :(
I'm watching the report right now about Russian Ground Forces crossing into Georgia proper to Gori? What are you seeing on Russian Sources?
Bryan
11.08 00:26
http://www.interfax.ru/news.asp?id=26363
Tkshinvali is cleared and it is not under fire any more. Heavy shots are still heared from the south of Tkshinvali.
10.08 21:30
http://www.interfax.ru/politics/txt.asp?id=26347
Georgia gives a note where they state that they stop fire but it is not, they shoot every 5 minutes. We requested some kind of official documents to stop apply force but they are not signed. We requested withdraw forces to a line of 1992 year agreement but not all Georgian forces do so now.
Our ships reported to sink one Georgian ship attacking them near Abkhazia.
http://sl-lopatnikov.livejournal.com/82277.html
According to this information our army knows all Georgian army positions and all points of fire and all their army can be destroyed in 15 minutes (flight time). But there is no order. Russia trades with US and EU while Georgia keep their fire.
There is some information in blogs that Gori is under tank fire. For other information it is Georgian provocation and disinformation.
Sergey,
Link is enclosed to my next article.
http://majorsperspective.blogspot.com/2008/08/georgia-and-south-ossetia-update-13.html
I meant what I said in the article. I used your comments you sent that were translated from those additional articles. Thank You so much for helping me understand the situation better:)
Bryan
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